Hi,
My first post in the forum.

I recently bought a TR1 83 model. It has been slightly modified towards a cafe racer, and I hope to make it shine a little bit more in the future. I will add some pics when I have it runnng again.

I have some issues with the starter, but I do not know what. I suspect it could be the starter clutch, but I lack knowledge, so I was hoping someone could watch the video below and listen if they think the clutch is the problem? The starter spins but nothing seems to "catch"..? Any input appreciated.
I have used the starter a lot lately, as I have struggled with the fuel crane, and it has gone from okay, to worse to now like in the video.

https://youtu.be/tuS1EAt9r0o

Mabye it is the clutch causing the problem, but if the lever is not pulling correctly, see here-  http://www.tr1.de/pages/technics_manual.php?iQuery=key=xv1000&lng=eng&flg=0&pge=0008   - you will have a similar issue. Remove the small lever-cover, push the lever manually as far as it is possible , using a screw-driver or a bolt.  If there is no success, remove  the left engine-cover and look for wear to the clutch and the gears,
regards Ali

Thanks, Ali! I'll look at this tomorrow.

Hello

Check what Ali said first.

It sounds as if the clutch is engaging and the starter is spinning. Have you had the side cover off yet. I came across an incident recently with a TR1 with no intermediate gears fitted, So remove the side cover and check if the gears are there!!

The planetary gear can also spin within the starter motor itself. It normally allows a little engagement of the starter mech so it sounds like you would have extreme wear to allow that.

I would you remove the nearside covers and check all the mech is there and functioning.

Are you based in the UK? if so where?

Best of luck.
Kevin (UK)

Hello again.

Whoops....  I should have read your post more carefully. My apologies.

If it is getting worse you must have the intermediate gears in place. It could be the planetary gear in the starter motor slipping. The planetary gear is pressed into place and should be fixed within the starter motor case. If it rotates within the case there is no drive to the starter motor clutch and no drive to the starter mech.

Best of luck
Kevin

First: Ali, I tried to push the lever all the way in. Ignition was off, and the starter was spinning for a second one time. I also tried to start it while the lever was pushed all the way in, but no difference.

Kevin: I am in Norway.. :) It has gone from working just fine to doing as in the video in a few days with (stupid me..) a lot of work for the starter, trying to start with the gas crane in On-position, when it should have been on Res...
I have removed the engine oil, and will check behind the engine cover tomorrow if I can find the time.

Earlier I did remove the starter, and looked at what I believe must be what you are referring to as planetary gear, after googling it..:) Now I only remember that I pulled out the gears and looked at them, they looked okay, and I inserted them back in. I believe it was possible to rotate them manually, but I am not sure.

I will anyway try to look for wear on the clutch, and see if I can get closer to a solution. Will update when done.

Thanks to you both. :) I havent done any mechanics for 25+ years, and then it was only on my Yamaha DT50, inserting a big(ger..) bore kit, going from 2.5 hp to 7.5 hp, which was fun enough, and some other minor stuff, so my knowledge and skills are on a very low level, and I am grateful for your patience.

Hello

As you have used English to describe your problem I thought you may have been in the UK and I could have possibly met up with you to help fix the problem. Norway is just a little to far.   :)

The starter motor effectively has a small gearbox on the end of it. That is the planetary gears. If you pull the starter motor apart you will see there is a toothed gear on the end of the motor shaft. Around that you should have two small gears which are free to rotate. The two small gears fit inside a larger circular ring. That circular ring has gear teeth on the inside of it. The circular ring fits inside the end of the starter motor housing. It is a push fit and should not move. If you can move the circular ring within the housing or can pull it out that is your problem. It should be fixed and not rotate. I hope that all makes sense?

If you do have that problem you can either get the circular ring tack welded into the starter motor housing. Or, you can do what  I did and drill and tap a hole through the starter motor body and into the circular ring then insert a screw to hold it.

Best of luck with your diagnosis.

Kevin

I'll buy the plane tickets for Norway, and pick you up in the airport! :)

Better see if I can fix it myself first.. :) I removed the starter again, and as you can see in the new video, the outer weel does spin around, and it is also possible to pull out and remove.. I'll try to fix it so it doesnt rotate.

https://youtu.be/mW6erdEHM7Y

Thanks again, Kevin!

Br
Roger

First time I removed the starter, one of these small splinters fell out. There are space for 4 of these around the outer ring with gears inside, but no others are present.

https://youtu.be/mW6erdEHM7Y

Hello Roger

I can see the problem in the video. You zoomed in on the outer ring and the planetary gears. You then placed your finger on the outer ring and rotated it. That is your problem. The outer ring should not rotate. It is a press fit and should be tight.

You can either remove the assembly and replace it. Or you can remove it and spot weld the outer ring into the starter casing. Or, without removing it you can drill a hole through the side of the casing and into the outer ring. Then tap it and fit a screw.

Best of luck.

Kevin

Thanks, Kevin.
Then I need to find out how to make sure the ring doesnt rotate. What I cant see is how the ring is supposed to, originally, be fixed? It is tight fit into were it is assembled, but nothing to hold it from mving around. Only thing is if it is the pressure from the starter when assembled, is supposed to be enough to tighten it..?

Looking at your solutions, again with noe experience:
If I should weld it, it has to be in the place where it is fitted in the video? It will not be possible to weld it on the starter.
And the hole-drilling seems like the easier solution, especially as I dont have any immediate access to a welding-machine.. :)

Do you think somehing glue-ish, locktite or similar could do the trick or be worth trying..?

Again; thanks for your help and patience!

Br
Roger

Hey Roger, because of the location of the pieces they will get quite hot so any loctite/industrial glue will definitely have to be high temp resistant..

Hey Kevin you sound like you have a bit of experience with messing around with the starter ( or is it gathered knowledge from here and vtf? ) I am trying to work out which part would originally have held the outer ring. it was a press fit from factory but does the starter motor casing contribute anything to the fit? Is there a slight taper in the casing or was it just held by it's own outer casing? If so what does the shimming help?

I have one burned out starter from the Flying Anvil and one spinning one originally on the parts bike, only had the burned out one apart and I seem to remember shims in that one, just wondering if it would be worth putting them in the spinning one or should I try and hold the planetary in some other fashion..?

Cheers,

Rant.

http://www.tr1.de/technics/misc/starter.htm
Maybe this is helpful?
Regards Ali

Nice one, Ali. :) As Kevin says, this must be my problem, and as we agree on; there must have been something holding this in place from the beginning. I am tempted to try this before drilling or welding, so I will see if I can get ahold of the part. Thanks for the input on glue/locktite, rant! Will keep ypu posted!

Part ordered. 2 Euros. Just need to wait until the seller (ebay) replies with the shipping cost.

Don't leave us hanging here, have you the ebay link for the part? :)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1J7-17537-Y0-50-SPESSORE-SPINTA-YAMAHA-VIRAGO-750-BIG-BEAR-e-ALTRI-MODELLI-/161379381927?hash=item2592f5f2a7:g:QLQAAOxyoA1RQlI1

Sorry about that. :) Cheapest I found. Also some US suppliers promising free worldwide shipping, but when I tried to order, it was a very high price for shipping.

All

I have had this happen in two bikes I have owned. So it'd down to painful experience.

The outer ring was originally push fit into the starter housing. It is an interference fit so it was just pushed in. Glue is not an answer. I have known of people, through this forum, who have tack welded it. On two occasions I have drilled through the outer casing and into the ring and fitted a screw or small bolt. This has worked for many thousands of miles and is still holding strong. I think that is the cheapest and simplest solution.

You may wish to change the starter motor. If you do decide to change the starter motor buy the XV1100 starter motor. This is a four pole motor as opposed to the TR1 two pole motor. It is a much better solution and improves the bike starting. You will have to fit a slightly longer power cable to the motor but apart from that it is a direct replacement.

I checked on eBay and there are lots on sale. This is from a UK site: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Yamaha-XV-1100-Virago-cast-wheel-1991-Arrowhead-Starter-Motor-/302021002759?hash=item4651dac607:g:BUkAAOSwtnpXkgsH

All the  best with the repair.

Kevin

Thanks for the tip about the XV1100 starter, Kevin. I am considering drilling the hole, but as I dont have the tap tools, and my neighbour is skeptical about letting me borrow his as he is not sure about cast iron and if there is a chance of destroying the tools, it would be a more pricey fix. :)

I bet 5 Euro on the starter clutch.

Update: I have now drilled through the housing, and placd a set bolt, outer ring is fastened. Issue persists. :/ Anyone gpt any vids or any input on how to approach the starter clutch?

Thanks for all your input this far. :)

I increase my bet to 10 EUR. ,-)

You have to remove the left engine cover, then you can reach the starter clutch. Replace it or open the tin housing and replace the rollers within it. You can also weld it together.

Hello

Sorry for not getting back to you earlier. I was at the TR1 rally in Germany.

We will have to get this sorted or I will owe George 10 EUR !!

I am not aware of any videos that can help. I have used the Haynes manuals and found these to be helpful. I would recommend you get one. As George advises, remove the side cover and that will give you full access to the starter motor mechanism. The starter clutch is on the end of the starter motor shaft. If it turns one way and doesn't turn the other then the clutch works.

If that isn't the problem then look closely at the starter gear cluster for wear or damage.

Be careful as you remove the side cover as the gear cluster is spring loaded and will come apart as you remove the side cover. It's not a problem but getting the gear cluster together in the right order is important so take it apart carefully and note how it sits together or buy the Haynes manual and you will see an exploded diagram for the gear mechanism.

Best of luck.
Kevin

The problem is, that the clutch maybe only slips under load. If you turn it by hand it seems to work, you can turn it into one direction but not into the other.

How are you guys getting on with this?

Any result yet?

Regards
Kevin