Einen gutenabend allen!

Sorry for writing in english... reading german is no problem. writing is a little different ;)

So as the title already says. I've got a question on the Dellorto's. I found a lot of very good info on the carbs. And you guys all seem to run the carbs WITH acceleration pumps.... And I assume for a reason... The Dutch company that will deliver the carbs asked me the question if I really need the acceleration pumps?!?

They will be installed on a standard engine except carbs and exhaust.... And the bike that the engine is in will be track use only.

So what's the difference? I understand that the pumps deliver an extra puff of fuel on opening the throttle suddenly. But is the bike undriveable  without the pumps? or do I only have to be more "delicate" on opening the throttle?

Other popular racing carbs (like keihin CR special) are not equiped with the pumps and work really well but are maybe more delicate to drive/race. And often mounted on a 4 cylinder bike....

So decisions decisions ;D

All opinions are welcome off course ;)

Viele Grusse,

Loek

PS: the bike looks like this :)

Hello Loek,
i use Dellortos with a pump, so i can not tell what it is like to have non. But i think while accelerating from lower revs the mixture can get very  lean for a moment when you pull the throttle full, especially with singles or big Twins. This might be no problem, if you be "delicate". So the bike is surely driveable, but: it´s more fun with the Pumps, and maybe you don´t want that guy next to you on track to be much faster out of the corner,
Ali

Hello Ali,

Your last sentence makes a lot of sense ;) Thanks for the reply. I hope someone here has some comparison between dellorto's with or without the accelerator pumps.

Regards,

Loek

Unfortunately I don't have a comparison on TR1s (I run Mikuni VM38s without an accelerator pump on mine), but I do quite a bit of work on Guzzis, both with and without accelerator pump. As Ali said, you have to be more delicate and roll open the throttle and can't just crack it open. You can counter this a bit by running a richer pilot and needle setting, but this will of course have other side-effects, most notably from a racing perspective: The bike feels a lot less "snappy".

Hope this gives you a bit of an idea.
Greg

Hallo Nanno,

Thanx for your addidtion. I'm leaning towards the pumps more and more. The comparison with the CR's goes a bit wrong in terms of big twin versus in line 4's I think. And ease of use in a 4h endurance race might be handy as well ;D

Is anyone from here attempting the 4h endurance in Oschersleben in may 2017?

Best regards,

Loek

Hi Loek,

I think that Ali is perfectly right. Big singles and twins need some more time to rev up from low revs (idle and little above that range) and the mixture might get lean when opening the throttle immediatly.
The accelerator pump should rich up the mixture in that phase. But once  the engine has reached its maximum torque and revs further to the limit, the main jet and the needle jet should control the mixture.
When you only drive on closed tracks you will mainly use the middle and high revs of the range which means, that you do not need the accelerator pumps.
I have tested it in Oschersleben with a big Honda 650 single and get the best throttle repsonse from a well set Mikuni TM40 without pump.
If you need the pumps to get out of a curve you should better change down a gear.

Just simply test it on the track by removing the actuator lever inside the slide cover. An easy job with Dellortos.

I am just also fitting a set of new Dellortos to my TR1 engine, together with some other modification. But mainly for road use......and therefore I start with pumps and will see what happen.....


Do you have a picture from your bike in a side view?


I have also tried  -just for fun-  to fit the TR1 engine in a single cylinder Egli Frame, but ist too tiny.  A SR500 will fit easily......

The second pictures shows my work on the TR1 so far.....

   

Hi Ralph,

Wow your work on the tr1 looks very nice! Nice EGLI frame as well :) what kind of engine is it originally built for?

Thank you very much for your explanation!! this realy helps! The company that will deliver the dellorto's indeed asked me the question on the pumps because of the track use only. The guy himself runs a supermono with carbs without pumps...

There's a lot of pictures of the build of my bike on the net if you're interested. I wrote a thread on "do the ton" http://www.dotheton.com/forum/index.php?topic=32065.0
But not all the pictures are working...

And there's a built thread on a dutch forum... difficult to read, but way more pictues :-)  http://www.motor-forum.nl/forum/list_messages/319864/Eigenbouw-EGLI-TR1-1.html

Best regards,

Loek

Hi Loek,

I have been gone through your dutch blog, very impressive work you have done !
Are you a professional for milling and turning work or do you have a well equiped "hobbyiest" garage?

My Egli frame and bike is made for early eighties supermono singles like SR500 or Honda XBR500. It is the only Egli frame which is stressfree to the engine. A batch of 32 streetlegal frames have been build between 1982 - 1985.  
To have some more "fun" and grunt I am planning to integrate a Weslake twin engine. I am aiming for 150 kg / 850 ccm / 80 PS.
But thats another story 8-)

When installing the Dellortos do not forget to drill a M5 or M6 threads into each inlet port.
You will need them for balancing the carbs with vacuum gauges. The Mikuni manifolds do not have any connector for balancing.

When you wanna go racing with the TR1, especially in a endurance race, you need a good power engine.
I think, with the original engine, you have problems to stay inside of the 115% as Beginner by the
classic endurance.com-Serie. A problem is also the oil case under the engine! Its easier to start at classic-endurance.de because
the level is not so high und you have more fun.
I would take a set of 40 or 41 PHM carbs with the pump, because this carbs have new cases and works very good.
Greetings Sepp

Hi Sepp,

Thanks for your reply! Is it the PHM40 or PHM41 that has a new version or both? I'll ask the supplier. He is the importer for dellorto in the Netherlands so he should know ;) I'll take the advice on the accelerator pump. It can be easily disconnected at a later stage when we want to. And with future upgrades on the engine... will the 41's be the best option?

Then about the endurance... I didn't know about the classic-endurance.de version... I looked ad the website and found the name of Sascha. The same Sascha as classicendurance.com :-? Whatever, starting in a slightly friendlier version of racing is a very good idea! So thanks for the tip! We'll contact the organisation for sure.

And about the engine... it has standard internals for now. Dellorto's, exhaust and an ignitech are the current upgrades. But then what's next on a standard engine? 750 heads? other camshafts? porting the standard heads? These are my first steps in engine tuning and I Like to be able to do all the work myself. So tips and advice are very welcome ;D

I've got al the (standard yamaha) parts for the XV1100 - TR1 engine combination.... but that will take a while to build, surely not for the coming season. I'm not sure on what pistons to run in that engine? Standard seems good to me, or even the XVS1100 versions?. I'm not very sure on all the american piston makers with their magic numbers :P and have no experience in "designing" my own to be custom made...

Best regards,

Loek

 

Aah ok, the classic endurance-com is a mix from art motor and the classic-endurance.de with Sascha and Karl Robert Boos.
The classic-endurance-cup.eu is the more professional cup, which runs in front of the endurance world cup. This cup has more
technical rules for the bikes and the drivers.
For tuning: with the 1000 standard piston, the only possibility is to take a set of 750 heads or other pistons with higher doms.
We make our racing engines now only with the bt 1100 engine, because the aluminium cylinders are not so sensitiv.
For this i have two versions of pistons with 10.5 and 11.2:1 compression. They are plug and play in the aluminium cylinders.
Our maximum now is 105 HP and 120 Nm at the rear wheel. Good to irritate the 4cylinders......................S.

Wann ana a Fölla find, dann derf ern bhoidn

Hi Sepp,

Now all is clear about the endurance :) We start with the endurance of art motor first. The other cup you mentioned is way more competetive for sure. A bit like european classic series.... that's where the big money is spent.
So you use a complete BT1100 engine for racing. 105 HP at the wheel sound real good fun :D And 120 Nm will launch you out of a corner. Eat that! you 4-cylinder engine ;) What kind of max RPM are we looking at for these numbers? Our ignitech is limiting at 7500rpm for now. I hope to raise a bit more towards 8000 safely.
Are the pistons you wrote about compatible with the Tr1 engine? (with XV1100 crank and cylinders). That would be an improvement on the standard piston...
Thanks for the info!

Best regards,

Loek

I run an XV1100 crank, cylinders and pistons with ported XV750 heads on my daily driver TR1, but I run slightly smaller carbs as in everyday life, I prefer low-down torque over max. power. (And I was able to score a set of Mikunis very cheap!)

XVS1100 parts can be used as well, but you either have to machine (have machined) the cylinder mouths in the engine cases, as the XVS liners are slightly bigger or turn them down a bit. The XVS crank is lighter than the XV1100 crank (and I think on par with the TR1 crank - but Sepp should know the numbers - and this should make the engine a bit more lively.

The part I am missing in your list is a decent exhaust as the stock one is only good for passing legal emissions test.
(I've built a few and can tell you from first hand experience that you want an exhaust with two equal length headers of around (or close to) 70cm header length up to the collector. This helped immensely with both torque and overall power.)

Cheers,
Greg

Hi, whats more lively?
I cannot feel the difference of torque and power between the XV and XVS/BT 1100 Versions, although the XVS-Crank is 2 kg lighter,
also the conrods and the pistons. Means, the difference on the paper is larger than on the bike.
Our max. rpm is about 8400 U/min, for the engine it is not a problem. The original valves are lightend (Inlet - 30 gr.) with the original
valve springs. But to get more power over 7500 U/min the problem is to fill the heads with gas, maybe with much bigger carbs - ore
4 valves. I dont know. Maybe is more possible with other cams, but with much higher cams you get often mechanical problems!
The best way is to start with a complete BT 1100 engine, a good TR1 case and with my JE-pistons and the TR1 heads ore the original
pistons and 750 heads.

Greetings Sepp

Sepp is now showing the top of the pops. You need lots of experience to get to that power level.

When you look at my last picture you migth recognize the  strange looking fins on the cylinders ?
They are coming from a XVS1100 cylinders and I fitted the crank and pistons as well. My TR1 has already done more than 90000 km so some younger parts have been welcome.
The XVS pistons have the same diameter of 95 mm, but a shorter distance from piston top to the gudgeon pin centre. The weight is about 100g. lighter in total. The XVS1100 crank is about 1,4 kg lighter and has more stroke. That means the engine becomes more a long stroke Ratio, but will rev up faster with the lightend inertia.

I have combined the XVS crank with the TR1 flywheel, because the XVS flywheel is heavier.....
The compression ratio will rise up to about 10:1 when using XVS Piston and the TR1 heads. I still have the standard valves fitted and only done a very light porting job to get a free flow for the 40mm Dellortos.
But I changed the valve springs to new ones with a possible max. valve lift of 13 mm and valve retainers in titanium.  I still look for a new camshafts profile which will make the engine more livley, but not peaky. I will use the remaining XVS camshafts to weld some additional material on it and then let grind a new profile....

Gregs advise to build larger and even-length exhaust pipes needs more mechanical skills, than I have on tubes. So I have made a new pipe for the rear cylinder from old original Ducati pipes (eBay..). Simply cut into pices and weld together in new angles and directions.
When I look at your frame building Project, this should not be a problem for you?

Maybe you would like to have a close look at the parts? We are almost neighbours (of course we are) but I live very close to the dutch border......  

some more pictures for comparison

Hi All,

Thanks very much for al the info. I understand that Sepp's engines are top of line... and not easy made by unexperienced engine builders. It takes a learnig curve to get up there. But for the starting engine builder ;) (like myself) all info is welcome. And I'm sure there's some power and torque to be found in the original TR1 engine without spending big money.
Do you guys change something on the camshaft timing for example? I know it's not easy done with the standard tr1 cam wheel... But should it be possible... is there power or torque to be found?
Higher lift cams can and wil surely give some mechanical difficulties, that's why i don't believe in the "easy" American numbers... whatever.

@RalfR: I already built my own exhaust ;) with equal length headers (don't know the length by head). It made a huge difference in how the engine feels, it revs better and feels stronger (no idea of power and torque), but the total bike is 40 Kg's lighter as well, so that may help as well.
About the fact we're neighbours... I live 15 minute drive from Aachen  :)  I am not a professional metalworker... but I "work in the field" and I can use the workshop and tools at my daily job :)

No guys, our engines isn`t top of the line. Our swiss racepartner has 10 hp more but with big money spending
and problems with the timing chains.
Loek, when you make your exhaust this way, you can took it in the barrel after welding. You must weld every part after the next complete!!!
Also for every race exhaust it is better to make conical manifold as possible. You get a longer high torque level.
Our pistons are for using with the BT/XVS crank and the TR1 heads. They must worked a "little" on both sides and inside.
By using the original pistons it is better to shorten the cylinder feet about 55/100 to get the perfect measure between cylinder and head.
And by using the XVS/BT cylinders with the old case look for your cam chain tightener, this must be made longer!!!
The third picture shows the inlet port, it is 5 degrees higher and outside from the orginal, to get more place for the carb and the open cone.
S.

Hey Sepp,

Very nice pistons you've got there! They can't be used wit a XV1100 crank? I thought they were the same dimensons as the XVS/BT crank in terms of stroke... both 75mm. But the conrods can have a different length off course, in RalfR's picture they do :( Maybe I have to find a XVS/BT crank...

About the exhaust.... I know by now ;D. I made it this way and built a split in the lower straight part. In the end it only needed very little "bending" to get it right but it wasn't easy for sure. The exhaust took me at least 60 hours to fabricate and get right. With the conical headers you're deffinetly right but I don't have the right machinery to make that sort of stuf. Maybe in version 2.0.

Maybe you find your engines not "top of the line" but as far as I can see is there only one guy out there with more power ;).... pretty top of the line specs in my humble opinion. Best power to cost ratio maybe and that's the best option for most of us I think. Those last extra horses com at a price.... not to talk about reliability. And to me it's about all the small details that "make" your engines top of line.

So al the tips from all of you guys are great, I read them well, think about them to understand what happens and then decide what I will put in my first ground up engine build!

Before the engine work starts...the carbs and home made discs ;) I'll let you know how it all works

Hi Loek,

a good cost-to-power relation is important to be fixed before you start a motor tuning. For my engine I do not expect to much top end power. I would be happy with some 80 - 85 HP and maybe 90 - 95 NM when its finally run in and adjusted.
Therefore I mostly use new and used parts from serial production, but I must say that Sepps JE-Piston look really attractive to me.... ;)

I have bought a complete XVS engine with a damaged crankcase and a low 11.000 km on the clock. It was still a risk, as every time, but inside everything was fine and useable. I have paid 800 EUR for the engine, which is o.k. for me.
Another benefit of the XVS engine are the aluminium-cylinders which are Nicasil plated and could be run with a tight piston clearance and good heat transfer. I understand from Sepp that the BT engine is very similar to the XVS.

At least I live in Gangelt, which about 10 km from Sittard and work in Übach-Palenberg, which is close to Heerlen.


 
 

Hey,

Did you guys Raf and Sepp get my PM?  it seemed not to work :(

Best regards,

Loek

Hi Loek.

I was busy with my lathe in my Garage. I had to fit the air funnel on the dellortos.
The engine should still work  with damped and filtered air.

You have got an PM.

Regards

Ralf

Jihaa,

The story goes on. I scored myself a very cheap "broken" and incomplete BT1100 engine.... state and milage unknown, so i hope cylinders and crank are good for building a "fast" tr1 engine :)

I'll post some pictures soon.

Best regards,

Loek

Hi Loek,

a BT1100 is good engine to start a new build up of a race engine. You can use the lighter crankshaft, the cylinders (nicasil plated instead of sleeves) and many other parts depending on their condition. The pistons are o.k but not good for a high compression ratio. Then you need something special made. I think that Sepp has new pistons on offer ?

In my old TR1 crankcase I found that the outer rings of the main bearings have rotated in the crankcase bore. The race inner ring on the right hand side shows lots of frictional corrosion.  
I changed the right main bearing from ball to a roller bearing. But then you have to add a turned distance ring between race outer ring and the crankcase bore. Finally I used Loctite 648 to fix the parts together. Now the thermal expansion of the crankshaft takes place inside the roller bearing and not between  crankshaft journal and race inner ring. Hopefully......

I have now almost finished my TR1  and going to start/check the engine next week. Then the dellortos will work up for the first time.

Here are the pictures with my roller bearing conversion on primary drive side.

Hi Ralf

How did the bearings turn out?
Thinking about doing the same on both side so I can use standard bearing sizes.
Yamaha asks ~130 euro per main bearing

Hi BS,

I am just back from about 3600 km holiday touring with the TR1 around Scotland and the engine still turns quiet round and round and round......
There are no suspicious particles on the magnetic oil screw so I believe that this conversion works.
My intention was not to save money but to have a controlled non-located bearing on crankshaft main bearing. As you can see on my former pictures there was a lot of rust on the old crank journal because of its minor bearing play. Now the inner race of the roller bearing is fixed with loctite.

First I thought that the 90.000 km plus were the reason for wear, but then I could see the same signs of wear on the XVS1100 crank with only 12000 km......
The roller-bearing is also not cheap, something about 75 EUR.  
The other ball-bearing on the opposite side has a close fit, was still fine and is in use now on the XVS crank.

Groetjes  ;)