Hello ,

I have aTR1 engine and would like to mount a BT1100 crank , cylinders and pistons . The BT1100 cylinders are a bit wider ( outside) and do not fit in the TR1 crankcase , must I enlarge the TR1 crankcase or can I reduce the BT1100 cylinders (outside where they go into the carter) ? Can anyone help me with that

greetings
Patrick

Sure, I am in the process of doing the same thing at the moment. It's generally easier to turn down the cylinders than to bore the cases as you would have to take all the bearings out to prevent them from swarf.

Hi Patrick, welcome in the forum.
In my opinion, the only viable solution is boring or milling the holes in the motor housing to the correct diameter.
I do it on a milling machine.

greetings
Dieter

Thanks you for the good advice, I also think it is best to enlarge the crankcase, because I don't have a milling machine, I bored out an old 920R cylinder at 105mm, and try to enlarge the hole with a hole saw (105mm), this is no precision fitting, cylinder BT1100 is 104mm, hole crankcase105mm .
Can I use the clutch of the BT1100 , do I have to replace the axle for that ?

sequel

THAT is a bad*ss approach. Unfortunately one that might bite you. Unlike on your 920 the BT seals with a metal gasket and I am not sure that it will seal well, when you open it out this far.

Turning down the liners sounds bad, but we're talking only about 0.5mm reduction in wall thickness...

If you want to run the BT-clutch, which you could use as a basis for a 9-disk clutch, you'd have to swap in the complete BT-gearbox. Added benefit would be a slightly longer 5th gear. (I did the math in another thread, it's somewhere around 3 to 5 percent. Same as with an older XV1100 gearbox, which I currently have in and yes, you do notice it, if you have to do some Autobahn-touring every now and again.)

Cheers,
Greg

By using the BT Gearbox, you must use the gear ratio and the outer clutch plate from the old engine.
Clean the inside from the crank and use new plane bearings in blue or black!
S.

So correct me if I misunderstand, I use the axles, clutch of the BT1100, gears and outer clutch plate of the TR1

I have cylinder heads from BT1100, xv1000Tr1 and xv920. Do they all have the same camshaft and can I exchange them, probably best use the xv920 cylinder head?

Badass solution no so bad after all , 105,5mm ,normal 105mm BT1100

sequel ,by the way that is my bike

patricks wrote:

So correct me if I misunderstand, I use the axles, clutch of the BT1100, gears and outer clutch plate of the TR1

Bingo. You have to shorten the clutch-basket studs to be flush with the clutch-basket in the process of the conversion. I milled them down, but I hacksawing them to the approximate length and then filing them down to length should be absolutely doable. Just use a straight edge (or at least some straight bar) to make sure you get them all the same length.

What did you make your spacers/alignment plates out of? Looks like a sliced up cylinder. Never said your solution wouldn't work, I just pointed out, it's the slightly "hairy chested" solution.  :thumb: (Goes to show, there's a few other approaches possible as well and I am absolutely overthinking the issue.)

Cheers,
Greg

P.S.: Have a look at my blog and you'll see what I mean... I went all the way with fixtures etc. and honestly I am not sure my final outcome is that much better than yours.

yes it is a sliced up ​​cylinder, 4 cm high. drilled on a lathe to just 105 mm, on the underside of the cylinder a small slanting edge to 105.3 mm, because you have to insert the hole saw (105,2 at the teeth)from the underside of the cylinder , it is not as perfect as milling but it works

sequel

the front cylinder first, because you have to cut the tubes a little for the rear cylinder  ;D

hello Greg,

I have read your blog, interesting, certainly from the chain tensioner, Can I put the full gearbox of the BT1100 into the TR1 case, according to you 3 to 5% longer, with the changes from 1000cc to 1100cc this can not be a problem I think, in you blog I read nothing about it, do you have photos or can you help me with that?

Not that far (yet) as I am currently moving my workshop.

Yes the gearbox is a straight fit and in the current iteration of my engine I run a XV1100 gearbox, which is the same gearing as the BT, but with the older coarser splines.

There's also an engine build thread in the General section, where you'll see the mods required to fit the gearbox and modify the clutch. If you follow the embedded links, you get to the corresponding blog-post in English.

hello Greg,
Ok I found it , thx

do you know of the camshafts of the BT1100, XV1000 and XV920 are alle the same ??

They interchange, but they are not the same. XV920 should have the tallest lobes. BT1100 will have slightly milder timing and smaller lobes. XV1000 and XV1100 will have the same timing as the 920, but slightly smaller lobes.

Hello Greg,

I have read in the post of Ali ( BT-Motor wird zum TR-Motor) that he had a broken gear, with a BT1100 gearbox in a TR1 engine, to which Sepp answers:Die Schaltkulisse verwende ich immer von den alten Motoren, die von der BT funktioniert da meiner Ansicht nach nicht!
S.  Do you know what he means by that?

Hi Patrick,
i think it´s called shifting Gate in english, that thing / axle that moves  the shift forks. Sepp uses the one of the TR.
But you have to use the forks from the Bt, they are a bit different in size.
By the way, for widening up the TR crankcase to make the Cylinders fit i used a very cheap rotating grinder  and my Makita- drilling machine, surely not state-of-art, but it worked fine,
Ali

hello Ali,
Here the same , I used a hole saw (21euro) to make the holes in the TR1 crankcase !
I only have to use that /thing axle from the TR1 , the rest I can take from the BT1100, not including final drive gear of course ?
Would it be wise to use xv920 cylinder heads? can I also use no seal under the cylinder or is that too much?

You'd have to measure the squish-gap. It's something I will certainly try with my new (BT-based) engine again. The base gasket is around 0.5mm compressed and I recall Sepp mentioning that he shortens BT-cylinders by about the amount, so it should be fine.

What is the correct or minimum squish gap in mm ?
I am learning a lot here and I love that   :)

When I measure the squish gap, do I have to measure the gap between the piston and the valves or is that not a problem with the xv920 cylinder head ? , because then I don't have to mount the camshaft chain and sprocket ::)

From an engineer's point of view: everything above 1mm of gap isn't a squish gap, but a squish valley.  ;) My current XV1100 based engine come out at 1.1 and 1.25 (or there abouts) and runs notably cooler. (It was 1.6 and 1.75mm of squish before.)

Ideally you would want to aim for sub 1.00mm, as that's where the squish gap (again) becomes vastly more effective. I run an XV700 head with the small valves, so I was pretty confident about piston to valve clearance, but even then, I checked it with clay and the clearance was in the 1.5mm region, i.e. plenty. Not sure about the bigger valves. If I were you, I wouldn't chance it.

Hope this helps
Greg

Okay, thanks Greg,

Maybe it is easier to adjust the clutch cover of the BT1100 a bit so it fits on the TR1 engine and then I can leave the clutch of the BT1100 as it is standard

If the gasket matches, you should be able to bolt it on. (I may look a bit daft, with two styles of covers, but it should work.)

That being said, you can also convert to XV1100 covers (these often go cheap), you'll only need a spacer under the generator and pickup as they would be spaced out too far to get a reliable signal.

Just a thought:
one advantage of the BT-Crank: it has much less rotating-weight, but Clutch and Flywheel (magnetic wheel, what ever it is called) is built really heavy instead.
To convert to a TR Clutch (Plate)  is simple, and the TR- Flywheel fits plug and play, and the TR-covers can be used, its not about Gramms, its  Kilogramms less,
Ali

hey Ali ,

XV1000TR1 crank with one bearing: 11.1 kg , piston with axle:0.595 kg , clutch:4 kg , flywheel: 3.2 kg

BT1100 crank with one bearing: 9.6 kg ,piston with axle: 0.495 kg , clutch 4.25 kg , flywheel : 6.4 kg

then you have to add 2 plates to the clutch of the TR1, the difference is no longer great

greetings patrick

Ali ,

the shift axle is not interchangeable, that is what Sepp means I think, they differ in length !

test

So ,
Axles with gears from BT1100, forks from BT1100, final drive gear from XV1000 TR1, small axle for forks and shift axle from XV1000TR1

sequel

Sorry ,
my technical english is a bit poor, i´ll try anyway,
if you use the left side cover of the TR or 920 with chain drive, you also have to use the shift mechanism that works on the shift axle , on the left side. That thing with the springs, where the lever sits on outside.
In that case you can use the different sized shift axle, it fits better.
With the clutch , you don´t have to add 2 plates, you can use the plates of the BT, but you have to cut the things(no idea how they are called ) where the 6 screws and springs are located, in line to the outside of the inner hub. A normal metal-saw will do, or a lathe. Look at the TR / 920 hub, you will see what i mean.  
For using the right side cover of the Tr, you have to use the clutch plate ( that alloy Plate where the springs sit in) of the last mentioned. Measure the clearence to the inside of the cover, if there is not enough space, grind the plate down a bit.

I prefer  the clutch with one more friction-plate, this will work when you change the metal plates , the ones of the BT have 2.5 mm (or so, rememberance) , to TR parts which have 1mm less. Also change the last (inner )  plate to a one with the smaller /smallest thickness, which is secured by a wire. Then you will have enough space to put in one more friction plate. Put on one more spacing ring to the clutch plate bearing, and you will have a clutch that will not slip, and easy work at the handlebar lever,
I hope this makes sense, it is difficult for me to describe things , even more in english,
Ali

hello Ali ,

My english is also very poor , I am from Belgium and speak normal Dutch  ;D ;D
But I understand you well, I have to take the shift axle of the TR1 with the corresponding switching mechanism, because that of the BT1100 is 4mm too narrow and can therefore also move 4mm from left to right in TR1 case, with all its consequences.
And I do like the BT1100 clutch cover, so no one knows which engine is actually under my caferacer, so you see questions on the faces of other motorcyclists every time they look at my motorcycle.

Patrick

addicted to TR1 ^_^ :thumb: ;D

So I can still adjust the clutch to 9 plates than I do not have to worry about the space in the clutch cover, Greg said to me than you have 2 different styles between left and right part of the engine, but that makes it more mysterious

Cylinder heads BT1100, TR1, XV920r: all the same size of inlet and outlet valves

Camshaft lift: all the same cam lift

Timing: TR1 and XV920r same timing (longer than BT1100), BT1100 shorter timing

sequel

assemble

Nice work (helluva pace) and I like your crank pulling-tool.  ;)

Greg,
Do you know where I can find a 530:18 or 19T front sprocket? now I have one of yamaha XS650 530:18T , where I drilled holes in with a stone drill, which works because it is widia  ;D

Unfortunately you'd have to have them custom made or use XS650 ones and have holes spark eroded into them.

Clutch with 9 plates as Ali suggested

squish-gap and valve clearance measurement

squish-gap:
front cylinder: 1.2 a 1.3 mm
rear cylinder: 1.2 a 1.3 mm

valve clearance:
front cylinder: 2mm or more
rear cylinder 2mm or more

everything measured without gasket under BT 1100 cylinder and with old headgasket of 0.8 mm, cylinderheads XV 920R

oil pump BT1100

make chain tensioners longer

make hole larger (10,5mm) is easy if you forget the middle cylinder bolt  ;D

sequel

Ich fahre zur Zeit scheinbar einen ähnlichen Motor.
Mein 1000er Motor hat angefangen öl zu verbrauchen bei über 100tkm, deshalb habe ich mich mal umgesehen.

Bin günstig auf einen xv1100 Motor mit krummen Ventilen gestoßen, keine ahnung wie der vorbesitzer das geschafft hat, beide einlassventile waren minimal krumm, aber am kolben war so gut wie nichts zu sehen, überdreht?

Egal, also eigentlich habe ich bei dem Motor nur das Polrad und Kuppung sowie deckel von der 750er verbaut,
weiter habe ich Xv920 Zylinderköpfe mit leicht bearbeiteten Kanälen aus einer Kiste gewühlt und die Zylinderfußdichtung weggelassen.
Beide zylinder hatten genau Null Unterstand ohne die Dichtung.
Nockenwellen sind auch von der 920, Ventilfedern habe ich gemischt, innen gelb, außen Blau, war das so schlau?
Habe im Nachhinein gelesen dass das eher für die 750er Ventile gedacht ist, weil sie leichter sind?

Ich habe mich für die Zylinderköpfe mit den großen Ventilen entschieden, weil ich das für recht sinnvoll halte, der Motor will ja atmen
Mit den Bt1100 Vergasern die ich schon aufm 1000er hatte läuft sie jetzt schon sehr mager, eigentlich gut, weil scheinbar mehr durchsatz da ist.

Eigentlich wollte ich nur sagen, dass mir die Kombination sehr gut bzw besser gefällt als der 1000er mit den 750er
Zylinderköpfen, weil man jetzt auch billigen Sprit fahren kann ohne dass das klingeln losgeht, der Motor hat laut Popometer nicht weniger Leistung, aber dafür ein schöneres Drehzahlband und der Anlasser hat nicht so viel Stress.
Meiner Meinung nach ein guter Kompromiss wenn man mal durch die stadt fährt, aber auch mal über die Rennstrecke (ohne Ambitionen rekorde aufzustellen)

Was der Motor jetzt an Verdichtung hat weiß ich nicht mehr aus dem Kopf, habe es mir aber aufgeschrieben.. knapp über 9 auf jeden fall

Achja, habe eine Xv750 mit Kardan, deshalb konnte ich den 1100er Rumpf komplett verwenden

hello Flintus ,

yes, I think it is almost the same configuration, my goal is 9 to 9.5 compression and about 75 to 80 hp, because I use it every weekend in the summer, 250 to 500 km on a Sunday, so it still has to be reliable

test drive made of about 40km, engine runs well, feels more powerful, clutch better than Tr1, gearbox shifts well, only original starter motor hardly gets engine around, so new starter motor with 4 brushes purchased and everything ok

an additional reason for a new starter was that I use a lithium battery, because it had to be small and not heavy (800 grams)

Sounds good. Just a tip from my experience, replace your groundstrap with a bit of welding cable with the right cable shoes. (Please solder and don't just crimp them!) You'll be amazed how much faster the starter spins afterwards... I use some 25mm2 cable and that works a treat.

Hello Greg,

I still have another grounstrap from where this cable is attached to the frame to the starter itself, but I will replace it with soldered welding cables, Thx for the tip.

I would like to make another exhaust this winter, because I hit the ground with this one, I have ordered all kinds of tubes of 44.5mm and 51mm to recreate something like exhaust in the picture.

https://mad-exhausts.com/product/yamaha-xv-performance-exhaust-incl-bos-muffler/

That's ... different. ;)

Manifolds about the same, but exhaust longer, because I have to go through the swingarm and use my open damper that I now have (61mm)  ;D ;D :thumb: I hope !!!

Most people make himself a lot of work, but have no idea about what to do...……………..
A big exhaust on a bigger engine and the original carbs with a small air intake is like a loop around the neck
and jump down. Not good for a lucky future.
Greetings from a bavarian with no idea……………………….S.

hello Sepp,
You think it's not a good idea to make this exhaust (as you can see on the photo it has many conical parts), as long as you keep your standard 40mm carburetors ??
More eating is more horses ore something like that

I would make this exhaust also because I have too little ground clearance in the right turns

A bavarian with no idea !!! if anyone knows, then it is you  ;) ;D

With a 2-1 exhaust you need a big hole outside, about 40 mm and this is loud with a two cylinder engine.
With two mufflers you can use two db-Killers with 2 x 25 mm. This is Ok for your horse powers AND the police.
S.

exaust length is mutch to short!! Looks good, but cuts performance!
Take this one, good for powerful 8500 rpm.
Also useful, necessary for full power: open carbs, no filters!

Yoeti

hole is now 60mm and no dbkiller  ;D ;D ;D

I'm going to make the exhaust longer, I make it the same to where the exhaust collectors come together, then I have to continue through the rear bridge and back up to my 60mm silencer ,so it will easily become 50 a 60 cm longer

Rolf, die modernen Cafe-Racer Fritzen bauen zum Sehen, nicht zum Fahren.
Des muß ma akzeptiere...………………………..S.
Rolf, the modern Cafe-Racer Fritz built for looking, not for using.
This, you must accept……………………………...S.

about 4000km / year, not using I dont know ! but the eye also wants something, that is where it is not all about maximum power a combination of the two

As Greg told me, 25mm2 crimped and soldered, ground cable for battery and starter, and especially for those who think that caferacers are just to look at, so just look  ;D ;D ;D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VA8fGFdauI&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR135i2P-XItQNuXu2HqA5jZ4GuYyKB589sL1fvYesU0I79dTBc2FKYAAsY

Nice crimping tool!  8-)

making a new exhaust, not according to the rules of most horsepower but will suffice enough , 2 in 1 in 2 or something like  ;D

sequel

sequel

It certainly looks nice!

Thx Greg , 2x 44.5mm to 51mm to 2x 44.5mm , I hope it works  :)

test, try to measure oil pressure in cylinder head

Is that meant to be read as 8PSI?  :o

I think 8 is 0.8 bar, if I open throttle, it becomes 11   1.1bar, could that be ???

Doesn't sound like a whole lot to me... I do believe the 0.8 Bar at idle, but I would have expected around 2.5 - 3 Bar at full throttle.

(The critical word is EXPECTED)

I still have to try that on the street, no one is allowed to get outside with the corona virus, I just tested in my garage ,I hope it is indeed more at full throttle on the street ,it is with the BT1100 oil pump so should be good

1Bar at that point, the very end of the Oil-feed, is not that bad. Most of the pressure is needed for the crank/big end/ rods. I had a similar sensor and Instrument , but mounted at the Filter housing , 7 bar with cold Oil, even when idling, 3-4 Bar at 4000 RPM when the oil temperatur was at 100-120 Degree/C
Ali

thanks for the explanation, but where do you measure the oil temperature at an engine with BT1100 cylinders

I measure the Oil temperature with that replacement , instead of the Oil filling cap, don´t know what it is called in english, it is not very exact, and is not fitting with the BT cylinders, i had to cut of a bit of material to make it fit.
This Thing shows 120 Degree as a "normal" temperature, it may be less in real, but it´s a good indicator.
So 120 is normal, 100 is OK in cold weather conditions, 140 is hot, at 60-70 the engine/Oil  is too cold to drive at higher revs.  Last year at chambley it shows 160, too hot and not good for the big end bearings, that is what i know now,
Ali

So you made it fit with BT cylinders, where did you buy it. Because I drive with original carburettors and a K&N filter, the engine is a bit too lean and my engine oil also gets warmer, I think, last year I had to replace the seal of the sprocket wheel (leak) with a Viton A seal

I am running the same kind of temperature gauge that replaces the dipstick. I bought mine via Louis.de - Pretty sure amazon and other will also have it in stock. Mine was being sold for as meant for a XV1100 model.

I find hundreds but none for xv1000  :'( , keep on searching

you can check the thread of the oil temp gauge. The Tr1 has M30 x 3,5mm, hope it helps! I changed the oil level sensor that's mounted under the engine for a "real" oil temp gauge. You need a lathe to adapt the original part....

That is not a bad idea, adjust the oil level measurement with an oil temperature measurement  :thumb:

true! if you have a lathe.... I sourced a simple M10x1 threaded universal oil temp sensor for €12 or something. Gauge from the local moped store, and you're off.
The original housing has plenty of aluminium. Put the sensor in place with loctite, some heat shielding on the wire and that's it. For track use, oil level is not so important... And temperature is always handy.

Oil pressure would also be nice, I'll fix that with a small LED, that doesn't need a gauge I think. I already have a sensor in place on the upper banjo bolt of the oil line of the rear cylinder.

Best regards,

Loek

I have a lathe, sensor 1/8 NPT (10x1mm conical), maybe adjust oil drain plug (M14x1.5mm) for sensor is also a possibility , or make new one,then oil level can remain ,


regards
Patrick

Nice! My oil drain plug is already the pickup for the oilcooler. I didn't like the modification of the original oil circuit so built a second one with a small electric pump....

:thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

for those interested, oil temperature gauge back in stock

https://www.kickstartershop.de/en/oil-temperature-gauge-virago-xv1000-xv750

Test drive made about 100 km, engine runs very well, a lot of torque at the bottom, but after some time a strange ticking on the right side of the front cylinder at the height of the timing chain

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ix8oHh-K8vE

already checked:
camshafts ok, rocker arms and shafts ok, at the same time mounted the rocker arms, shafts and bushings of the BT1100, chain tensioners ok

oil temperature gauge

It seems to me there is missing the second chain guide (when I look to the photo).

no, the photo is of the rear cylinder, the chain guide from the side of the chain tensioner is shorter, but I hope it is not a piston shaft (end of connecting rod), normally not because the crankshaft, pistons and cylinders of the BT1100 have only 30000km and were mounted with great care and a lot of oil

How STUPID can I be. pistons, shafts, connecting rods, cylinders ok,  distribution gear front cylinder NOK

hopefully problem solved, now waiting for new seals

correct

strange ticking in the engine has been solved, can now test exhaust this summer

Some test results: standard tr1 block, with standard carburettors, K&N filter and 2in1 exhaust. 188km / h on tomtom gps

some test results: tr1 block with crankshaft ,cylinders and pistons BT1100, with standard carburettors, K&N filter and 2in1 exhaust. 182km / h on tomtom gps, exhaust far too long and too small in diameter (51mm), very good torque at the bottom but limitation in high revs

some test results: tr1 block with crankshaft,cylinders and pistons BT1100, with standard carburettors, K&N filter and 2in1 exhaust. 191km / h on tomtom gps and was still accelerating, hopefully between 195 and 200 km/h on tomtom gps, try it out this summer, exhaust very good, good torque at the bottom and very good in higher rpm ,rear exhaust piece, conical from 51mm to 60mm and 360mm long

Matches pretty much my numbers. Well done.  :thumb:

Bumblebee can do about 190kph flat out. (Which is more or less a mix of your two engines.)

Thanks Greg for the information, so I can compare a bit with other modified tr1 engines. This summer I will try the top speed, with full throttle he was still accelerating at 191km / h ,not super fast but still accelerating. I think 195km / h is certainly possible , hopefully more, dreams are allowed and healthy. I wish I lived in Germany !!

Hey Greg, I thought I was the only one who gave names to my bikes. Bumblebee is a cool name  ;D :thumb:

Greetings Patrick

Tested today, max top speed 198 km / h on Tomtom gps with E10 (euro95), so my exhaust works !! I am a happy man  :) ;) ;D

New gauges placed on dashboard, oil temperature gauge and oil pressure gauge, both waterproof (normal for boat), oil temperature gauge about 10 degrees Celsius difference from oil temperature gauge in the oil filler cap, temperature is measured with a probe that fits in the oil drain plug M14x 1.5. The oil pressure of the oil pressure gauge is measured in cylinder head and varies between 0.3 and 1 bar while driving

foto

Für ein besseres Ergebnis: nimm eine lange Straße steil nach unten...……………
For better results: take a long way downstairs……………………….
S.

I don't understand well, what do you mean by that Sepp ?

I think what Sepp is hinting at is the fact that you will not always have oil at the drainplug, when riding and thus your measurements could be off every now and then.

Cheers,
Greg

Thx Greg ,

My thought was, this is the lowest point of the engine, so always good, according to Sepp this is not a good idea, some more explanation please?

greetings
Patrick

Maybe he meant it on behalf of the Topspeed,
downhill you will possibly reach the 200 and more,
no other tuning is required, ;D
Ali

hello Ali

Yes ,downhill will certainly be above 200 km \ h on gps without further tuning, Sepp always talks in riddles and you never know what he means, I also think he was talking about top speed , but was not sure ! ;D ;D :thumb:

greets
Patrick