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Too long in pieces. TR1 ignition system (Read 18109 times)

JohnB Ex Member	Too long in pieces. TR1 ignition system 18.04.14 at 16:32:45 and too long away from here... only when I sit down and calculate, I realise it is NINE years since my TR1 was last in one piece and being ridden. In the interim, I find the carburretors are full of crap, and the ignition is dead... I recommend http://www.nrp-carbs.co.uk/ for the carb rebuild kits I recommend http://www.ignitech.cz/en/ for the ignition bits I bought two coils and a TCI from ignitech, but still no spark, as I dreaded, the pick ups must be at fault. Note, I previously checked them, and found 166 Ohms on each, which is according to the Haynes manual within spec, yet, no spark Crank on starter motor with pickup outputs on to oscilloscope and does not quite make one division with scope set to 0.2 V per div.... At this time I do not know either what the output at cranking speed SHOULD be, or the minimum trigger voltage for the Ignitech TCI unit, either way, I am convinced it is currently way too low.... So, time to pull the left side cover... Pics here http://exeter-computer-repair.co.uk/tr1/ It looks like an original yam part, with the pickups bonded to the carrier plate, so as I type checking with ignitech which of their pick ups to get, and looks like I'll have to modify the carrier. I'm determined the bitch is going to live again...lol
JohnB Ex Member	« Last Edit: 22.04.14 at 11:20:54 by JohnB »
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JohnB Ex Member	Re: Too long in pieces. Reply #1 - 18.04.14 at 16:51:40 Just heard from Ignitech, the TC1 unit needs at least 0.7 Volts at cranking speed to work.... so I was getting 30% of that...lol
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JohnB Ex Member	Re: Too long in pieces. TR1 ignition system Reply #2 - 22.04.14 at 11:33:27 OK.. After much looking around, I find the pick-up coils (induction type) are on a bracket, made by Mitsubishi electric for Yamaha. You can see the part in the attached photo. No markings on the front, on the rear it says "F7T503" and Mitsubishi mark and then "71" After research, I find it is available from Yamaha Japan. Part number 4x7 81670 20(00) Price in UK Pounds is £219 + vat = £263.21 ------------------------------------------------- Now, many options, I can try to rebuild existing ones with new pickups from ignitech, maybe 75 euros, or, now I have part numbers, I can try to find someone somewhere with "new old stock" maybe 150 euros, or, I can buy this part, factory direct, warranty... and after all is going inside the engine, and crucial part for well running of the engine, so I sit in car park for 5 minutes having a smoke and think assholes, buy original part direct from Yamaha. ETA from Japan mid May. So, when it comes will fit it, and take accurate readings of coil resistance from new, AND take correct AC voltage readings at cranking speed, and picture of oscilloscope trace... Because this is half the battle to me. I know from Ignitech TCI unit requires 0.7 V to trigger. I know from Haynes book of lies pick up coils are supposed to be 124-186 Ohms, mine were 166. I do not know what voltage pick up coils are supposed to generate at cranking speed, at tickover, or at a couple of thousand RPM... So to me only way to get this right is to buy factory new, and measure. Watch this space.
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JohnB Ex Member	Re: Too long in pieces. TR1 ignition system Reply #3 - 22.04.14 at 13:44:38 Meh, just had a phone call from the dealer, bring the reciept back in for a refund. They have spoken to Yamaha Japan. 1/ The last one in stock has already gone, I missed it by one day. 2/ They now have no stock. 3/ They will not be getting any new stock... it is end of life. watch this space.
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JohnB Ex Member	Re: Too long in pieces. TR1 ignition system Reply #4 - 22.04.14 at 14:29:42 Since I must now do this the hard way... document the process here. 1/ Because the TR1 has the pickups on the outer cover with the alternator stator windings, you can't manually adjust the gap clearance, which is why Mr Yamaha designed it the way he did, with the now unobtainable part, which allowed no adjustments. Measuring the gap between the stator windings and the pickups, and then measuring the thickness of the rotor, it is clear Mr Yamaha did this right, there is just about 1mm clearance for the rotor, in total, so approx 0.5 mm either side, stator <> rotor, and rotor <> pickups. This all means that buying new pickups from ignitech http://www.ignitech.cz/en/vyrobky/accessories/pick-up/pick-up.htm I have to be EXTREMELY careful of dimensions... http://www.ignitech.cz/en/vyrobky/accessories/pick-up/pickup%20dimension.jpg If I look at mine, since the metal mounting bar is fixed, it is selecting the correct dimension pickups, and then mounting them accurately, that is the trick. Some pictures. http://exeter-computer-repair.co.uk/tr1/index.php?folder=VENJLXBpY2t1cHM= Thickness of picups side to side, along arc of rotation of crankshaft, 19.2 mm height of pickups, top to bottom, along line of radius from crankshaft, 21.0 mm Depth of pickups, along axis of crankshaft, 22.67 mm - note this is sat on top of mounting plate. Mounting plate is 2.0 mm The important numbers From centre of pickup to inner side of plate / bottom of pickup body where it sits on plate 11.0 mm Hear from Ignitech that from the pickups listed on their page, any of them will work with their TCI, resistance numbers not important. So... 1/ height of centre of pickup sensor from lower side of plate, 11.0 mm, this is crucial number, this is measurement B on ignitech data sheet 2/ must be enough space to actually fit mounting screws on plate, this is measurement C on ignitech data sheet 3/ thanks to yamaha design, measurement A on ignitech data sheet not significant, we have room for them all Only way to mount pickups with measurement B greater than 11mm is to modify metal carrier plate, possibly significantly weakening it. So P1, P2, P4, P6, P7, P8, P11, P20 & P21 all too "high" This leaves P3, P5, P13 & P22 P3 has a dimension C of 9mm, is flat base, and 250 ohm P3 dimension B is 6mm, we need 11, so need to add 5.0 mm shim should be good to go... watch this space....
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JohnB Ex Member	Re: Too long in pieces. TR1 ignition system Reply #5 - 22.04.14 at 14:45:14 Also, before I forget... note the detail in following pic of original yamaha part... not enough room for standard pickup mounting bracket, so we will have to modify this... next step, make a jig for original fitting so we can be sure replacement is perfect.
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stefan stein TR1 Board Senior Member Posts: 316 Gender: Bike: TR1., RSV1000 Tuono, Cagiva V-Raptor 1000	Re: Too long in pieces. TR1 ignition system Reply #6 - 22.04.14 at 15:22:01 Hello, You are obviously much more into this electronic business than me. But I still doubt that the pickpus should be rotten. They are frequently and falsely suspected, rarely to blame, when there is no proper ignition. Why should they have gone bad, when they did a good job before? Regards, Stefan
	Kein Zweifel: Ich bin aus der Eifel. Lassen sie mich Arzt, ich bin durch.
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JohnB Ex Member	Re: Too long in pieces. TR1 ignition system Reply #7 - 22.04.14 at 15:43:36 The bike has been in pieces for 9 years. It ran fine at the time, but I have no way of knowing how much better than the minimum required they were at that time, I do know they are 33 years old, and I do know that inductive pickups do fade with time in every other automotive application I have seen. As I type... I have... New spark plugs New coils and HT leads from Ignitech New TCI from Ignitech New Yuasa battery Literally the only remaining component of the ignition system is the pickups. I was getting no spark of any kind, not even with plugs outside engine and earthed to engine. I did measure voltage being output by pickups at cranking speed, it was below 50% of the required voltage (0.7 v) to trigger ignitech unit, and also far lower than any inductuion pick up I know of, for example ever early GM ones in automobiles would range from 0.6 volt at slow cranking to 22 volt at max RPM. It is a process of elimination.
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JohnB Ex Member	Re: Too long in pieces. TR1 ignition system Reply #8 - 22.04.14 at 16:45:51 very rough beginning to jig needs to first be made so that ignition pick up units and carrier plate can be removed from jig and replaced as often as you like, but can only ever be in one place, no movement, so far just the two carrier holes... Note, in the bike, these are 6mm coarse thread, not normal. then you can see from the matchbox and pop rivet the idea, make up blocks with a centre piece that EXACTLY lines up with the centres of the pick ups on the original equipment. Then when removing these pickups and fitting the new ones from ignitech, it is simple to get placing, gap, and everything else correct to better than 0.1 mm. no guesswork.
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JohnB Ex Member	Re: Too long in pieces. TR1 ignition system Reply #9 - 22.04.14 at 21:06:14 You see, Stefan Stein's reply made me think... 1/ yes, nobody wants to think these things die 2/ there is no real way to test them except on a running bike, so use gaskets, oil, every time you change.. Always there is a inverse connection between how difficult it is to get at a thing, how awkward it is, etc, and how prepared people are to accept that thing is defective.... TCI unit, no problem, pop the tank off, job done... So I sit, drink coffee, smoke, think.... In engine pickups are triggered by non magnetic steel "step" just 10 mm high.... I can simulate this by spinning a steel bolt in the lathe, and use feed screws to position pickup very very close to bolt. OK, not a perfect experiment, perfect experiment is pull rotor and spin this on lathe, but this is good enough experiment, 8mm coach bolt not as chunky as the step in the rotor, but not a million miles away, and I can set gap down to 0.1 mm, which will make up for this to some extent. You can see from photo at rest, this should work. You can see 80 second video of this experiment here deleted link warning is 350 MB so I will not leave it up forever... Edited, smaller version... http://exeter-computer-repair.co.uk/tr1/TCI-pickups/test.mp4 23 MB only... So variable speed drive in lathe, pickup set to 0.1/0.2 mm from 8mm dia coach bolt (nice radius head) and multimeter connected and set to AC Volts scale, turn the dial and spin her up slowly Maximum reading on multimeter is 0.3 VAC.. yes, digital multimeter not most accurate thing on planet, but, I have done this before with digital multimeter and oscilloscope, digital multimeter is not that far out, not so far it is "wrong" http://exeter-computer-repair.co.uk/tr1/TCI-pickups/00000-mts_snapshot_01-23_2014-04-18_19-33-59.jpg Digital multimeter and oscilloscope agree within a few % A few % on a reading of 0.3 VAC is nothing, when TCI requires MINIMUM of 0.7 VAC to trigger. ================================================= In automotive applications we used to find over time the cores of pickups became too magnetic, car ones used to be made with soft iron core and a small magnet at end, and eventually iron core became magnetised, which reduced output voltage... you could partially fix by demagnetising, but never proper cure. I'll say again, problem is, I do not have numbers for the voltage the pickups should generate at cranking speed, and at tick-over speed, and at say 3,000 RPM... if I could have bought new item, I could measure. As far as I know, nobody has this data for TR1 specifically... everyone has 20 to 30 year old units they can measure, not factory fresh. ----------------------------------- So again, not a perfect test, because I use a bolt and not spinning the rotor in the lathe, nevertheless, I GET THE SAME VOLTAGE as when on bike and cranking with starter, so not a million miles out, it is I think a valid test. 33 year old ignition pickups = crap.
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