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Rich mixture in idle, need help (Read 1203 times)
Kennihs
TR1 Board Newbie
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Posts: 11
Gender: male

Bike: Yamaha Tr1 81
Re: Rich mixture in idle, need help
Reply #10 - 26.05.23 at 16:21:36
 
I measured 4% roughly on the rear cylinder and 13-14 on the front cylinder.
I have synched the cards however maybe I should try it again.

It must have been condensation in the cylinder, I tried again to hold my hand in front of the front cylinder exhaust and the result was somehow different. I don't know if it is the smell of burned oil or just result of running rich.

I have recorded two short film clips yesterday of the bike.

One where i start it up cold in the morning: (The sound on the video is very 'mechanic/metallic' that is where is back fires.)
https://youtube.com/shorts/vzHNE871RM4

and one where it has been running for 20 km:
https://youtube.com/shorts/TG7u3A7eCRU

I am considering that it is a broken valve stem seal or something wrong with the valves on the front cylinder.

 344767397_779906050154899_121601558409472431_n.jpg     Picture below may be scaled. Click link or picture for original size Click here for all attachments  
 

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hornschorsch
TR1 Board Extraterrestrial Member
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Posts: 2749
Gender: male

Bike: TR1, SR500, XJ650-Turbo, RD350-YPVS, R[DG]500
Re: Rich mixture in idle, need help
Reply #11 - 27.05.23 at 10:11:09
 
I can not hear any unusual ticking. But these exhausts and the open air filter are not good for a nicely running engine.

Can you try another pair of carbs that are knowingly running good?

Otherwise check valve stem seas and possibly piston rings.

 
 

Gruss,
Schorsch

Fahrt so schnell ihr könnt, so lange ihr noch könnt!
(Uli Peil im XJ-Forum)
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Anja-D
TR1 Board Senior Member
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carpe diem

Posts: 343
Gender: female

Bike: 1981 TR1. (5A8), modified with XV1100 (3LP) Eng.
Re: Rich mixture in idle, need help
Reply #12 - 28.05.23 at 07:54:01
 
Good Morning Kennihs,
to your starting Audio: It sounds that your ignition is not working correclly. First impession was "only one Cylinder" is working.
That is corresponding with the black face of spark plug Cyl2
Q1: Do you have a Flash-Light for checking the Ingnition Point? If yes, check both Cyl 1 and 2 for proper timeing.
Q1.1: Does the Spark Plug Cap(s) is/are in good condition?
Q1.2: Does the Ignition wire Cyl2 is good at the end which is drilled in the Spark Plug Cap. If not, cut a little piece off to get a good end before
        connect it to the spark plug
Q1.3: Ignition Coils: Cyl2, is the left one (seen in drive direction) Check electric wires for good conditions. Are all wires without any cracks,
        are the connection plugs without corrosion on the contact surface?
Q1.4: Check wires from the pick-up coils. (left side of the engine, right abow the clutch-link-cover, in front of the air-filter-housing. See Pic.
        Check for thermal deformation because of the head in the nabourhood of the Cyl1 exhaust.
Q2: Double Check the Starter Plunger, they are Rearly fully closed. Check it by push them down by using your finger.
Q3: All O-Rings new? You can check it, while the engine is running, spay it with brake cleaner a little bit.
     If rpm rises with the influence of alcohol the O-Rings are not good.
Q4: Pilot Screw (s): 2 evolutions out from full closed position?
Q5: JET-NEEDLE: Cyl 1: Y-21  and Cyl 2: Y-20 , The Cyl1 (rear) is tendencly more rich then the Cyl2 (front) for inner cooling.

If you are not sure, whether the spark plugs are ok, if they are new or not, innerchange them form cylinder to cylinder. If spark plug from Cyl2 is working correctlly in Cyl 1 it is ok     a.s.o.

Syncronizing the Carbs:
1) Be sure both Throttle Flaps ar not closed. So you can use the Throttle cable at your handlebar. Therefore use the Cable Aduster.
1) You are able to sync the carbs properly or must you turn in the adjustment screw fully to there end in?
    If it is so, try to shorten the spring behind the adjustment screw a little bit to get the screw more in.
2) Do you have in place the screws for the Throttle Flap adjustment? See pic. Sometimes it is neccessary to use both of them.
   The right hand one is to understand as master to adjust Idle rpm during normal operation.
   During adjustment of the carbs is could be possilbe to adjust the left hand one, also. However, the left hand screw is to handle with care !
   Use it for fine adjustment after the main work of syncronisaton of the carbs is done. Only for adjusting Idle running.

With kind regards
Anja

 Pick-up_Wires.jpg   TR1_Pick-Up_Stecker_7.JPG   Carb_Screws.jpg     Pictures below may be scaled. Click links or pictures for original size Click here for all attachments  
 

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TR1 seit 1982, die aktuelle seit 1988, schraube und fahre selbst
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Kennihs
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Posts: 11
Gender: male

Bike: Yamaha Tr1 81
Re: Rich mixture in idle, need help
Reply #13 - 14.02.24 at 12:16:01
 
Hi Anja,

Thank you for the response. I have had a brake away from the TR1 duo to life happens.
Luckilyh i am now back on trying to figurer out my issue.

Regarding questions:
Q1: I have not checked this as i realised i have a problem with sprak on cylinder nr. 1.
Q1.1: Yes good condition
Q1.2: I have done this and checked the condition

Q1.3: I have soldered ned wires on the coil and made new connections, afterwares checked the new connection with a multimeter.
Q1.4: I made new wire harness , and checked this.

Q2: I have checked this and they work fine.
Q3: O-ring a good

Q4: I have checked theese multible times, also tried adjustment by Co2 tester. - Further i have found a guy in Japan that sells a tune-up kit for the TR1: https://www.jp-stores.com/mc/we70630/?act=c2&c=402&icode=5540  i have ordered two kits for the carburetors, so that i can try to adjust several parameters.

Q5: I have checked theese and they have their correct location in each carburetor. Further I will recieve new adjustable needles from Japan and try thees.

Since the last time i have made a new wireing harness.
i have found two thing that do not corrospond with the original harness.

1- My chinese tachometer is getting the puls for revolutions from the pick-up coil.
2 - my indicator cancelling unit has two more wires that on the wirediagram (red/white & green/white wire.)

I have observed that the spark on the front cylinder is acting unintentional.
When i push the starter only one spark will flow, and then nothing. Then when the engine is reved past 2500/3000 rpm there will be a continous spark, as when the engine gets hot.

The spark on the rear cylinder is very strong. and the engine will idle only on the rear cylinder at 1500 rpm.

Video spark rear cylinder: https://youtube.com/shorts/ZytwXq5eiTU?feature=share
Video Spark front cylinder(Not good): https://youtube.com/shorts/lpe7ablYDsM

I have measured the ignition coils and pick-ups and they are within specifications of the manual.

I will try to remove the tachometer from the pick-up wire later and see if that might be the issue.
If this is not the case the maybe the cancelling unit or the TCI is the problem.

What are you thinking?

 
 

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Anja-D
TR1 Board Senior Member
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carpe diem

Posts: 343
Gender: female

Bike: 1981 TR1. (5A8), modified with XV1100 (3LP) Eng.
Re: Rich mixture in idle, need help
Reply #14 - 16.02.24 at 03:49:08
 
Good Morning Kennihs,
that is a good idea, remove for testing, the foreign revolution indicator.
Connect all wire in the OEM-Way and test it again.

On your videos, the front (Cyl No2) spark plug is truely dead, at all.

In the original layout, the orange wire, which comes from the TCI-Unit for the L/H Ignition coil, will used for the Rev-Ind, as signal source, also.
---
The Plug-Connector of the OEM Revolution Indicator shows 4 Wires:
Blue = comes from Light-Switch for Illumination the Scale
Black = Frame Ground
Brown = Wireharness ground ( inside the Wire Harness some "Ground" Needs are feed together inside the Wirediagram )
orange = impulse source ( from TCI-Unit towards left Ignition Coil )
---

So, if you need a signal source for your foreign Equipment, use the orange wire.

AND if your engine fires up in a correct way, let it run for a wile  to remove all oil charcoal deposits inside the cylinder.
When the ignition problem is solved, sync the carburettors. I do not think, that it will be neccessary to insert other Needles for "fine" tuning the carbs.

If all original Needles and jets are located correctely inside the Carbs, and these are synchrinised properly and the CO-Screws (Pos 28 **) are from fully closed two revs-out adjusted, the engine shut run very well.

** see my images about the carburettor parts, I had placed abow.

Kind regards
Anja



 
 

TR1 seit 1982, die aktuelle seit 1988, schraube und fahre selbst
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Kennihs
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Posts: 11
Gender: male

Bike: Yamaha Tr1 81
Re: Rich mixture in idle, need help
Reply #15 - 22.02.24 at 17:23:26
 
Okay, so i removed all the non original wires for tachometer and tested again with a result of the spark returning Smiley  
i decided to pull the carburetors and try to clean them again, with additional focus on the front carb.

I did two findings along the way:

1. After looking at the needle jet for a long time it seemed to be another size than the original, a new will be mounted.

2. After cleaning the  carburetor houses several times with brake cleaner, carburetor cleaner, soaking over night and ultrasonic cleaning i have found that fluid flows much better through the pilot passage on the rear carburetor than on the front. It seems to be restricted compared to the rear carburetor but not fully blocked.
I tested it by mounting the pilot screw to soft seat(carefully offcause) and blocking the other small breater hole inside the carb at the butterfly valve.
Then i ran several cans of brake cleaner through the pilot air jet intrance and having it leave through the hole where the pilot jet is mounted. (Hope it makes sense.) If i attache a piece of tube and blow through the pilot jet mounting position it is very clear that it seems restricted.  

I have located the issue to be within the red circle on the image. it must be clogged with carbon or something, i just cant get it cleanied out.

Do anyone have a brilliant idea how i can clean this small path?
I am lost for ideas.

thanks all for the help so far really appreciate it Smiley

 needle_jet2_002.JPG   carb_bottom2_001.JPG   Carb_top2.JPG     Pictures below may be scaled. Click links or pictures for original size Click here for all attachments  
 

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Manniku
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Posts: 48
Re: Rich mixture in idle, need help
Reply #16 - 22.02.24 at 19:48:39
 
You can use a small 2mm drill to try to get the blocking stuff out. Just per hand and soft turning it. When blowing it out does not work.

 
 

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Anja-D
TR1 Board Senior Member
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carpe diem

Posts: 343
Gender: female

Bike: 1981 TR1. (5A8), modified with XV1100 (3LP) Eng.
Re: Rich mixture in idle, need help
Reply #17 - 23.02.24 at 17:10:15
 
Hi Kennihs,
try to use a Pipe Cleaner, accessory for Tabaco Pipe Smoker, available in Tabaco Shops or well soerted Marts. See pic.

Bent one tip a little bit to get the Curve inside the Carb Channel. Then move it carefully towards the Blocade, forward and aft. Perhaps it helps.

Good Luck  Happy

Best regards
Anja

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TR1 seit 1982, die aktuelle seit 1988, schraube und fahre selbst
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