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Cooling the engine oil (Read 485 times)
gs58
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Cooling the engine oil
10.05.23 at 10:36:23
 
I have almost finished building an engine using a XV1100 crankshaft and a bore of 102mm, which gives a total capacity of about 1225cc.  It also has custom higher compression JE pistons and Megacycle cams.  I am considering fitting an oil cooler due to the expected higher temperatures and am particularly concerned about the temperature around the exhaust valve area of the rear cylinder.

Some of the options that I am considering are;
- to take the feed for an oil cooler from where the banjos are that feed the oil lines to the head,
- to split the oil line after the cooler and run hoses to each head where a restrictor will maintain the oil pressure,
- to have the oil enter each head by means of a banjo adjacent to the exhaust rocker shaft instead of the inlet rocker shaft.  This should allow the cool oil to cool the immediate area before traveling to the cam and inlet rocker areas.  (The standard system heats the oil before it gets to the exhaust valve area.)

Questions:
- A search of this forum for information about oil coolers only brings up items from almost twenty years ago.  Is anyone using one, or have experience with an oil cooler on a TR1?
- What is an optimum size?
- Should I only cool the oil going to the rear cylinder? This would mean that the oil would travel through the cooler at a slower pace and be more efficiently cooled.  Or it could allow the use of a smaller cooler.
- Has anyone attepted reversing the oil flow in the heads in this manner before?  What was the result?


Comments, questions and advice are welcomed.

 
 

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hornschorsch
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Re: Cooling the engine oil
Reply #1 - 10.05.23 at 11:30:41
 
There was a TR1 with an oilcooler mounted as you described it at the rally 2010:

https://manitu.koblenz-net.de/horn/2010_tr1_treffen/bilder/

https://manitu.koblenz-net.de/horn/2010_tr1_treffen/bilder/cimg0493.jpg

https://manitu.koblenz-net.de/horn/2010_tr1_treffen/bilder/cimg0494.jpg

https://manitu.koblenz-net.de/horn/2010_tr1_treffen/bilder/cimg0495.jpg

Kedo has a special lubrication line for the SR500: https://www.kedo.de/doppelte-direktschmierung-raceline.html
perhaps you can build something similar for your engine.

But i am not sure if in practice this has any use. Nearly all TR1 engines, even tuned ones, run without oilcooler. Wilhelm Hahne did a great test with the TR1 and he measured moderate temperatures on the front and rear cylinder: https://www.motor-kritik.de/classic/common/00042001.htm

 
 

Gruss,
Schorsch

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Anja-D
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Bike: 1981 TR1. (5A8), modified with XV1100 (3LP) Eng.
Re: Cooling the engine oil
Reply #2 - 10.05.23 at 11:35:51
 
Hello gs58,
do you have the chart with the XV1000/TR1 Oil System? I have enclosed that one from the YAM "SupplementaryService Manual" Doc.:5A8-28197-80 from 1981.
As you can see, the both Cams s are conected to each other of each Cyl-Head.

The TR1 (or other Engines, based on XV750/XV1000 Design) are not famous for there exellent Oil Pressure. If you want to change some components of the original Layout, take in mind, that the lubrication system of this specific Engine layout is to handle with care.

Q1: during your engine overhaul works, do you have installed the bigger oil pump from XV1100 series?
Q2: How does the oil pressure must rise to compensate the higher compression forces on Crankshaft-Con Rods Bearings to manged there proper operation?

For your question about OilCoole layout and installation, ask the racer guys. Have a look at TAG "Racing" and/or "Strories"

With kind regards
Anja

 TR1_Oil-Syst.jpg     Picture below may be scaled. Click link or picture for original size Click here for all attachments  
 

TR1_Oil-Syst.jpg

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hornschorsch
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Re: Cooling the engine oil
Reply #3 - 10.05.23 at 15:07:06
 
Anja is right, mount the bigger oil pump from the 1100 and drill up to 2mm the lower long banjo bolt which connects the two oil lines to the engine housing.

 
 

Gruss,
Schorsch

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nanno
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Re: Cooling the engine oil
Reply #4 - 10.05.23 at 15:07:11
 
There used to be a commercially available system by Derale - it's also how Sepp did it on his race bikes in the past - which included the oilcooler into the system by drilling and tapping the oilfilter cover.

I included the installation instructions as an attachment to my post.

Regards,
Greg

 derale-inst.jpg     Picture below may be scaled. Click link or picture for original size Click here for all attachments  
 

derale-inst.jpg

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gs58
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Re: Cooling the engine oil
Reply #5 - 12.05.23 at 09:43:06
 
Thank you for your replies.  

Hornschohorsch, the photos in the links are the same as what I plan to do, but I hope to feed the oil feed to the heads by means of a banjo fitting in the exhaust rocker area rather than the inlet rocker. I'm pleased that I'm not alone with this design.

Greg, I found this information when I searched this forum.  I've seen pictures of the oil being fed from and returning to the oil filter cover before, but I think that there is a better way to do this rather than delivering cooled oil back into a hot motor before it travels to the heads.

Anja, I have read stories about seized camshafts and other oil related issues with TR1 engines so I am going to approach this cautiously.  I have drilled and tapped a hole in the flat area by the starter motor and put an oil pressure gauge there.  This will give me the pressure of the oil going to the crankshaft.  I will put another gauge at the entry point to the heads so that I can monitor the difference between the two.  I have already fitted an XV1100 oil pump and drilled the bottom banjo bolt to 2.5mm.  I have looked at changing the gearing on the pump to boost the oil pressure but will wait and see what the gauges tell me before I try that.

I am currently running a standard engine while the bigger engine is being built, so I plan to test any changes on this before swapping them.  I have also ducted air to the rear cylinder exhaust area to assist with cooling.

Thanks again for your feedback,
Paul

 
 

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hornschorsch
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Re: Cooling the engine oil
Reply #6 - 12.05.23 at 10:42:58
 
Seized camshafts result from the banjo bolt not beeing drilled, the oilpump not beeing replaced against the bigger one, the oilpump intake filter beeing clogged or from mounting the oil filter in the wrong direction. Drilling the banjo bolt to 2,5 mm can be to much, the oil pressure then may drop to low on idle.

Quote:
but I think that there is a better way to do this rather than delivering cooled oil back into a hot motor before it travels to the heads.

And therefore you want to deliver the cooled oil directly to the head, which is even hotter than the engine? Wink

 
 

Gruss,
Schorsch

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Ali
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Re: Cooling the engine oil
Reply #7 - 12.05.23 at 12:40:42
 
Just my thoughts:
you could try your new engine without oilcooling-modifications  and measure the temperature with something like shown on the picture. If there is no need to cool the oil, its fine. Otherwise you can modify something, which is always a bit risky (Try and error, but an error may be  expensive).
I have  BT barrels without this iron-casting (i hope this is the expression) inside, just aluminium with nikasil-surface. It transports the heat much better to the outer side.
Also JE-Pistons with a higher compression, BT-crank and rods, and Camshafts from Sepp.
15 min. on a racetrack , driving "digitally",
meaning only full throttle/full break, is OK. 30 min. is a bit much, its getting considerably hot.
Outside temperature plays a big role, Revs more than 5500-6000 for a longer time also.
If the compression is  high, more than 10-11 to 1, it will produce much more heat.
Just watch it, and please tell us how your engine works,
Ali
P.S.: opening up the exhaust port in head  is helpful, downpipes with a bigger diameter also, and i made a "Radius "
to the edge of the Exhaust valve for less resistance to get rid of the hot gases more fast

 K000541718_PCE_Instruments_Infrarotthermometer_PCE-777N_mit_Laserpointer_PCE-777N_01.jpg     Picture below may be scaled. Click link or picture for original size Click here for all attachments  
 

K000541718_PCE_Instruments_Infrarotthermometer_PCE-777N_mit_Laserpointer_PCE-777N_01.jpg

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gs58
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Re: Cooling the engine oil
Reply #8 - 13.05.23 at 10:19:57
 
Drilling the banjo bolt to 2,5 mm can be to much
Thanks Hornschorsch, this could save me some angst.  What is the recommended size hole to drill?

Ali, my bike will be spending time on the track as well as being ridden spiritedly on the road, so keeping the rear cylinder as cool as possible is important to me.  I have stepped the exhaust headers to 45mm at about 80mm from the head to give better flow, they then join to a 52mm single pipe.  I will review this when the new engine is in the frame and may increase the diameter of the final pipe.

Cheers
Paul

 
 

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hornschorsch
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Re: Cooling the engine oil
Reply #9 - 13.05.23 at 11:05:37
 
Quote:
What is the recommended size hole to drill?

See above.

 
 

Gruss,
Schorsch

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