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Nochmal dellorto PHM40... (Read 14271 times)
Sepp
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Re: Nochmal dellorto PHM40...
Reply #10 - 13.01.17 at 17:45:10
 
Aah ok, the classic endurance-com is a mix from art motor and the classic-endurance.de with Sascha and Karl Robert Boos.
The classic-endurance-cup.eu is the more professional cup, which runs in front of the endurance world cup. This cup has more
technical rules for the bikes and the drivers.
For tuning: with the 1000 standard piston, the only possibility is to take a set of 750 heads or other pistons with higher doms.
We make our racing engines now only with the bt 1100 engine, because the aluminium cylinders are not so sensitiv.
For this i have two versions of pistons with 10.5 and 11.2:1 compression. They are plug and play in the aluminium cylinders.
Our maximum now is 105 HP and 120 Nm at the rear wheel. Good to irritate the 4cylinders......................S.

Wann ana a Fölla find, dann derf ern bhoidn


 
 

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Loekm
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Egli Tr1

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Re: Nochmal dellorto PHM40...
Reply #11 - 13.01.17 at 22:14:58
 
Hi Sepp,

Now all is clear about the endurance Smiley We start with the endurance of art motor first. The other cup you mentioned is way more competetive for sure. A bit like european classic series.... that's where the big money is spent.
So you use a complete BT1100 engine for racing. 105 HP at the wheel sound real good fun Cheesy And 120 Nm will launch you out of a corner. Eat that! you 4-cylinder engine Wink What kind of max RPM are we looking at for these numbers? Our ignitech is limiting at 7500rpm for now. I hope to raise a bit more towards 8000 safely.
Are the pistons you wrote about compatible with the Tr1 engine? (with XV1100 crank and cylinders). That would be an improvement on the standard piston...
Thanks for the info!

Best regards,

Loek

 
 

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nanno
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ned ganz so
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Re: Nochmal dellorto PHM40...
Reply #12 - 14.01.17 at 09:59:29
 
I run an XV1100 crank, cylinders and pistons with ported XV750 heads on my daily driver TR1, but I run slightly smaller carbs as in everyday life, I prefer low-down torque over max. power. (And I was able to score a set of Mikunis very cheap!)

XVS1100 parts can be used as well, but you either have to machine (have machined) the cylinder mouths in the engine cases, as the XVS liners are slightly bigger or turn them down a bit. The XVS crank is lighter than the XV1100 crank (and I think on par with the TR1 crank - but Sepp should know the numbers - and this should make the engine a bit more lively.

The part I am missing in your list is a decent exhaust as the stock one is only good for passing legal emissions test.
(I've built a few and can tell you from first hand experience that you want an exhaust with two equal length headers of around (or close to) 70cm header length up to the collector. This helped immensely with both torque and overall power.)

Cheers,
Greg

 
 

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Sepp
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Re: Nochmal dellorto PHM40...
Reply #13 - 14.01.17 at 13:24:54
 
Hi, whats more lively?
I cannot feel the difference of torque and power between the XV and XVS/BT 1100 Versions, although the XVS-Crank is 2 kg lighter,
also the conrods and the pistons. Means, the difference on the paper is larger than on the bike.
Our max. rpm is about 8400 U/min, for the engine it is not a problem. The original valves are lightend (Inlet - 30 gr.) with the original
valve springs. But to get more power over 7500 U/min the problem is to fill the heads with gas, maybe with much bigger carbs - ore
4 valves. I dont know. Maybe is more possible with other cams, but with much higher cams you get often mechanical problems!
The best way is to start with a complete BT 1100 engine, a good TR1 case and with my JE-pistons and the TR1 heads ore the original
pistons and 750 heads.

Greetings Sepp

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RalfR
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Re: Nochmal dellorto PHM40...
Reply #14 - 14.01.17 at 14:23:47
 
Sepp is now showing the top of the pops. You need lots of experience to get to that power level.

When you look at my last picture you migth recognize the  strange looking fins on the cylinders ?
They are coming from a XVS1100 cylinders and I fitted the crank and pistons as well. My TR1 has already done more than 90000 km so some younger parts have been welcome.
The XVS pistons have the same diameter of 95 mm, but a shorter distance from piston top to the gudgeon pin centre. The weight is about 100g. lighter in total. The XVS1100 crank is about 1,4 kg lighter and has more stroke. That means the engine becomes more a long stroke Ratio, but will rev up faster with the lightend inertia.

I have combined the XVS crank with the TR1 flywheel, because the XVS flywheel is heavier.....
The compression ratio will rise up to about 10:1 when using XVS Piston and the TR1 heads. I still have the standard valves fitted and only done a very light porting job to get a free flow for the 40mm Dellortos.
But I changed the valve springs to new ones with a possible max. valve lift of 13 mm and valve retainers in titanium.  I still look for a new camshafts profile which will make the engine more livley, but not peaky. I will use the remaining XVS camshafts to weld some additional material on it and then let grind a new profile....

Gregs advise to build larger and even-length exhaust pipes needs more mechanical skills, than I have on tubes. So I have made a new pipe for the rear cylinder from old original Ducati pipes (eBay..). Simply cut into pices and weld together in new angles and directions.
When I look at your frame building Project, this should not be a problem for you?

Maybe you would like to have a close look at the parts? We are almost neighbours (of course we are) but I live very close to the dutch border......  

 TR1_Kolben.jpg   XVS_Kolben.jpg   TR1_Kurbelwelle.jpg     Pictures below may be scaled. Click links or pictures for original size Click here for all attachments  
 

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RalfR
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Re: Nochmal dellorto PHM40...
Reply #15 - 14.01.17 at 14:24:43
 
some more pictures for comparison

 XVS_Kurbelwelle.jpg   TR1_Krmmer.jpg     Pictures below may be scaled. Click links or pictures for original size Click here for all attachments  
 

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Loekm
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Egli Tr1

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Re: Nochmal dellorto PHM40...
Reply #16 - 14.01.17 at 16:44:40
 
Hi All,

Thanks very much for al the info. I understand that Sepp's engines are top of line... and not easy made by unexperienced engine builders. It takes a learnig curve to get up there. But for the starting engine builder Wink (like myself) all info is welcome. And I'm sure there's some power and torque to be found in the original TR1 engine without spending big money.
Do you guys change something on the camshaft timing for example? I know it's not easy done with the standard tr1 cam wheel... But should it be possible... is there power or torque to be found?
Higher lift cams can and wil surely give some mechanical difficulties, that's why i don't believe in the "easy" American numbers... whatever.

@RalfR: I already built my own exhaust Wink with equal length headers (don't know the length by head). It made a huge difference in how the engine feels, it revs better and feels stronger (no idea of power and torque), but the total bike is 40 Kg's lighter as well, so that may help as well.
About the fact we're neighbours... I live 15 minute drive from Aachen  Smiley  I am not a professional metalworker... but I "work in the field" and I can use the workshop and tools at my daily job Smiley

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Sepp
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Re: Nochmal dellorto PHM40...
Reply #17 - 14.01.17 at 18:27:43
 
No guys, our engines isn`t top of the line. Our swiss racepartner has 10 hp more but with big money spending
and problems with the timing chains.
Loek, when you make your exhaust this way, you can took it in the barrel after welding. You must weld every part after the next complete!!!
Also for every race exhaust it is better to make conical manifold as possible. You get a longer high torque level.
Our pistons are for using with the BT/XVS crank and the TR1 heads. They must worked a "little" on both sides and inside.
By using the original pistons it is better to shorten the cylinder feet about 55/100 to get the perfect measure between cylinder and head.
And by using the XVS/BT cylinders with the old case look for your cam chain tightener, this must be made longer!!!
The third picture shows the inlet port, it is 5 degrees higher and outside from the orginal, to get more place for the carb and the open cone.
S.

 IMG_3231.JPG   IMG_3232.JPG   IMG_3233.JPG     Pictures below may be scaled. Click links or pictures for original size Click here for all attachments  
 

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Loekm
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Egli Tr1

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Re: Nochmal dellorto PHM40...
Reply #18 - 14.01.17 at 20:03:35
 
Hey Sepp,

Very nice pistons you've got there! They can't be used wit a XV1100 crank? I thought they were the same dimensons as the XVS/BT crank in terms of stroke... both 75mm. But the conrods can have a different length off course, in RalfR's picture they do Sad Maybe I have to find a XVS/BT crank...

About the exhaust.... I know by now Grin. I made it this way and built a split in the lower straight part. In the end it only needed very little "bending" to get it right but it wasn't easy for sure. The exhaust took me at least 60 hours to fabricate and get right. With the conical headers you're deffinetly right but I don't have the right machinery to make that sort of stuf. Maybe in version 2.0.

Maybe you find your engines not "top of the line" but as far as I can see is there only one guy out there with more power Wink.... pretty top of the line specs in my humble opinion. Best power to cost ratio maybe and that's the best option for most of us I think. Those last extra horses com at a price.... not to talk about reliability. And to me it's about all the small details that "make" your engines top of line.

So al the tips from all of you guys are great, I read them well, think about them to understand what happens and then decide what I will put in my first ground up engine build!

Before the engine work starts...the carbs and home made discs Wink I'll let you know how it all works

 IMG-20160923-WA0001.jpg   IMG-20160914-WA0002_jpeg.jpg   20161003_210624.jpg     Pictures below may be scaled. Click links or pictures for original size Click here for all attachments  
 

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RalfR
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Re: Nochmal dellorto PHM40...
Reply #19 - 14.01.17 at 21:25:59
 
Hi Loek,

a good cost-to-power relation is important to be fixed before you start a motor tuning. For my engine I do not expect to much top end power. I would be happy with some 80 - 85 HP and maybe 90 - 95 NM when its finally run in and adjusted.
Therefore I mostly use new and used parts from serial production, but I must say that Sepps JE-Piston look really attractive to me.... Wink

I have bought a complete XVS engine with a damaged crankcase and a low 11.000 km on the clock. It was still a risk, as every time, but inside everything was fine and useable. I have paid 800 EUR for the engine, which is o.k. for me.
Another benefit of the XVS engine are the aluminium-cylinders which are Nicasil plated and could be run with a tight piston clearance and good heat transfer. I understand from Sepp that the BT engine is very similar to the XVS.

At least I live in Gangelt, which about 10 km from Sittard and work in Übach-Palenberg, which is close to Heerlen.


 
 

 
 

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